#anti white lotus

[wilcze-kudly]

I know we talk about the white lotus being much weaker in tlok but tbh the white lotus in atla didn't do that much either.

[technicolorrelays]

“Sometimes yangchen wondered if their (white lotus) animosity towards her was due to how valuable a recruit she would have been.”

Hmmmm!

[zuko-always-lies]

One thing I find striking is that, although both Korra and Azula had isolated and ultimately lonely childhoods, this was deliberately imposed on Korra much more than Azula.

Like, Azula ends up being pretty isolated, but, although Ozai is an abusive asshole, I’m not entirely convinced he was hyper-focused on isolating her.  Lu Ten dying doesn’t have anything to do with Azula. Sure, Ozai forced Ursa to leave, but I don’t think this was motivated by anything involving Azula. Ozai burning and exiling Zuko(and Iroh following him) was horrific, but I don’t think Ozai did it  to deliberately isolate Azula.  It wasn’t about her at all. Likewise, as far as we know, Ty Lee and Mai leaving had nothing to do with Ozai at all. It’s not like he forced them away.

Again, Ozai is extremely abusive and he treated his children like tools as to be used and discard, but I don’t think many of his actions were deliberately driven by a desire to isolate Azula so she would be more useful to him. He doesn’t seem to mind it when she brings Zuko and her friends home, for instance. The most you can say is that he might have deliberately worsened the discord between Azula and Iroh.

On the other hand, Korra’s isolation seems far more deliberate.  Her movement is heavily controlled, and the White Lotus(including Tenzin) seems entirely comfortable ordering her around, even she’s on the cusp of adulthood. Her compound was deliberately placed far away from the rest of the Southern Water Tribe, and her parents don’t even seem to be allowed to live in the compound. She doesn’t seem to have any friends or connections in the Southern Water Tribe, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Tenzin’s children were essentially the only kids she was ever allowed to have contact with during the whole length of her childhood.

Azula’s isolation seems to have been mostly accidental in nature, even if it was horrible; Korra’s isolation was entirely intended.

[shitposttcentral]

i demand 2 picks per show per category max for eveyrone except the last of us. they deserve that sweep they did in the guest actor/actress category

[zuko-always-lies]

Yeah. The White Lotus members sat on their asses drinking tea the entire war, doing zero to fight the Fire Nation, and did very little to help the Gaang even after the Avatar showed up.

Yet somehow the Korra-era White Lotus are even worse. Their only accomplishments are:

Isolating and abusing the Avatar to turn her into a weapon and doing everything in their power to deny her a normal childhood.

Keeping a few people secretly and extrajudicially locked up in creepy torture prisons.

Being completely useless in every possible way when any of the villains show up.

All in all, I think creating the White Lotus was one of the worst writing decisions in ATLA. The organization is pointless and useless and only really serves to whitewash certain characters.

actually will never stop being bitter that half the white lotus in atla is made up of fire nation turn cloaks who spent the majority of their lives hurting others, conquering, invading, and imprisoning people until they changed their mind/heart and ways within the last decade and they get to become good guys and live happily ever after

but hama doesnt get that redemption chance, despite being tortured and mistreated 1000x worse than any of them and having trauma based (if cruel) reasons for doing harm unto others. she shouldve been in the white lotus. meeting katara should have sent her on the path to redemption.

idk i just hate that iroh literally invaded ba sing se and was part of the seige that killed thousands of soldiers and he thought it was even humorous until his child died, but hama gets imprisoned AGAIN because she imprisoned fire nation citizens - not even killing them - instead of getting the chance to become a better person.

the narrative choice for the white lotus to be made up of a bunch of redeemed old men but the one old woman we meet is irredeemable is just an ick to me that gets further compounded as katara got absolutely shafted in lok

[stardust948]

Noble Ursa who married Ozai willingly for a cushy life -> White Lotus informative Ursa during banishment after witnessing the impact of the war -> Fire Lord Regent Ursa until Zuko is of age

[peregrinvs]

(The below is a show-only question.)

Iroh during Sozin's Comet said that he couldn't fight Ozai in part because the world would see it as brothers fighting for the throne, instead of the restoration of peace. But then he says that Zuko needs to confront Azula so that when Ozai falls, he can take the throne.

I can see the argument that Iroh thought that Zuko would secretly enter the Fire Nation Royal Palace and capture Azula with Katara before then holding her hostage until Aang arrived. But it seems more likely that he intended Zuko to fight Azula and her forces together with Katara.

So how do you think people in-universe saw the Agni Kai, and how do you think Iroh/the White Lotus justified his seemingly contradictory statements/actions? Also, do you think Zuko or the other members of the Gaang caught onto the contradictory, and if so, did they ever talk to Iroh and/or the White Lotus about it? Or if you think Ursa ever returned, did she confront Iroh about it?

Thanks for the ask!

The "Iroh v. Ozai final fight" question is kind of a mess. The showrunners didn't flesh out their relationship at all, to the point you can barely believe they're related. They made Iroh a powerful firebender and a morally good person, which combined with his parentage puts him in prime position to stand up against Ozai.

And yet they absolutely needed for the final showdown to be Aang v. Ozai, which was needed thematically. They kinda painted themselves into a corner making Iroh the Designated Good Moral Upstanding Mentor Figure (tm), so they needed to find a good justification why this amazing man couldn't get rid of evil himself. Iroh needed an excuse that still made him look good so that's what they came up with.

Iroh's dialogue could have been better written to reflect that either he feels he lacks legitimacy to challenge Ozai, or to simply state that he doesn't want to kill his own brother, but with the way it was handled on the show, we're left to speculate about his motives.

If you ask me, Iroh's real motive is that he's unlikely so win against Ozai and he knows it, so all he can do is hope the Avatar is OP enough to do it. However, he has such a high idea of Zuko that he's sure the kid can beat Azula in a duel, especially with Katara's help.

Thre's also the question of legitimacy: Iroh has previously accepted Ozai as Fire Lord and didn't object to being passed over when Ozai took the throne. It's a bit complicated for him to do a 180 now that Ozai has been reigning uncontested for years. On the other hand, Zuko has a valid claim to the throne because he is older than Azula, and he is in the right timeframe to challenge her before her coronation.

Finally, Iroh is a character who doesn't act much, even when faced with hard choices. That's because he's written as an older mentor figure, but it has the result of having him be passive and tend to let others fight his battles. He has never tried to stop Ozai, he was content playing shop while the war raged outside Ba Sing Se. It's in character for him to just offload the hard work on the kids with some vague advice about destiny.

I very much doubt he intended for Zuko to peacefully capture Azula - he never expresses concern for her, and he clearly just sees her as a hindrance that stands in the way of Zuko's Destiny(tm). He probably doesn't intend for her to die, bur i doubt he cares how Zuko defeats her, as long as the kid ends up Fire Lord.

I don't see why the Gaang or the White Lotus would have any issues with that, since having Zuko as Fire Lord is beneficial to them.

Ultimately it's hard to give a convincing explanation because i'm sure the writers intended for him to have a good reason, but as is often the case woth Iroh, his actions and reasoning are at odds with how moral he's supposed to be.

NB: i have not watched the new live action version, this answer is based on the original animated show canon.

[skratchpaper]

Order of the White Lotus Headcanon

There is no such thing as a "Grand Lotus" - the title was invented purely to cater to the egos of powerful men who need to feel more special than others. The real members of the Order of the White Lotus use this title as a way to easily recognise assets* of the order that are highly volatile and need to be handled delicately. e.g. When a Grand Lotus gives an order, the order may be obeyed... or the illusion of obedience will be provided.

There may or may not be a true group of leaders in the order. But if there is, it certainly doesn't consist of former conquerors, misogynists, reigning monarchs and/or people with less than two decades of membership.

*Yes, I am saying that "the old masters" aren't actually members, they just think they are. Easiest way to prevent them from getting temperamental and trying to wipe out the order... The order may or may not have used trial and error to figure this system out.

[persimnon]

breaking: girl raised in a city famous for attracting the most annoying tourists known to man forced to be a tourist in another touristy place and can’t even go outside without feeling like an asshole

[peony-pearl]

Me connecting invisible dots that weren’t meant to be connected at all: Maybe another reason Sokka is really firm towards Iroh when he asks for help to save Zuko from Azula in BSS is because Iroh had pointed out to Yue that she had been ‘touched by the moon spirit’, to which was the catalyst of Yue sacrificing herself to give that life back. While Sokka hates to think of his sister or family or new friends dying because of the loss of the moon spirit, he still lost Yue, and there’s a part of him in his young heart that resents Iroh for bringing up Yue’s gift, because it was the moment that led to his loss of her.

[wilcze-kudly]

The white lotus weren't forced into child soldierhood at 12 to 14, weren't made to leave their homes and change the world as traumatised preteens, weren't forced to resculpt the political lanscape around them after almost dying multiple times, hadn't endured being hunted by the most well developed militia in the entire world at the time.

The White Lotus didn't have to go through the life ruining trauma of being so let down by all the adults in your life that you had to save and then reshape everything about the world because it was destroying itself.

Because the white lotus were the adults who let the gaang down.

Bumi couldn't be fucked to actually guide his people and city. Pindao was busy chilling out and blocking the world out in his lil fortress. Pakku spent his years being misogynistic and bitter about his fiancée rightfully leaving his ass. Jeong Jeong fucked off to the swamp to assumedly stare at candles all day. And don't get me started on Uncle warcrimes who chose to redeem himself by roadtripping across the world with his extremely traumatised nephew onto whom he's projecting his love for his dead son.

The least this coalition of deadbeats could do was secure an ultimately small in the grand theme of things victory while they sent SIX CHILDREN to fight: an armada of war baloons, an unstable and incredibly volatile child prodigy (who Uncle Iroh also completely fucked over thanks for that one buddy) and the fucking FIRELORD. Have at the, kiddos, you'll do swimmingly.

"Oooh but they were doing stuff behind the scenes" the only time we see any implications of a net of conspiracy or anything of the sort it's when uncle Iroh needs a solid. How bout they do something useful instead of helping the relatively recently 'redeemed' war criminal sneak into the site of his greatest military defeat?

Pipe the fuck down with that 'oooh but the white lotus...' shit. These situations aren't even remotely similar.

Haven't the gaang done enough? Aren't they allowed to enjoy the remainder of their sad, tragic lives in peace?

Excuse Katara for wanting to live her life out peacefully healing and mourning her dead brother and husband, after her entire childhood has been saturated with rage and combat and war.

Excuse Zuko for wanting to stay at his daughter's side after having to restructure an entire country, going against everything he knew and almost his entire family. (While uncle iroh fucked off to his tea shop might i add)

Excuse Toph for wanting to live her remaining days with no strings attached, after being forced into a war at age 12 and becoming responsible for hundreds if not thousands of lives while acting as law enforcement in the new frontier that Republic City was. After all she ever wanted was freedom from her fucked up parents???

God, let them rest.

Actually I get really annoyed when people are like 'Katara, Zuko and Toph should've helped more during legend of korra ' like bitch they're like 80 leave them alone they have arthritis.

[jiminysjournal]

No, I WANT Greg to return in S3, and I want Tanya to fucking haunt him from BEYOND THE GRAVE.

Belinda cursed her; now, she's paying it forward.

[zuko-always-lies]

Like what did the White Lotus even do for a hundred years, it had high placed members in multiple world governments and they never tried to orchestrate peace talks or a cease fire? did they sabotage war efforts or promote humanitarian relief efforts?

Played Pai Sho, gossiped, drank tea, shared ideas they liked, and did favors for each other? And maybe cooperated to manipulate certain political events for their personal interests. Like, that honestly seems close to what the writers originally imagined the organization to be in Book 2, like basically a more powerful version of the Freemasons. For instance, Masonry does (or is supposed to) cut across political divides, and Masons are obligated "to support a fellow Mason in distress."

Presenting the White Lotus as opposed to the Fire Nation in the series finale was an odd creative choice, for many reasons, but the idea that they were some sort of resistance organization seems to mostly be a fandom invention.

And of course, what TLOK did with them was extremely weird in a different way, and honestly seems oddly War on Terror inspired in certain ways (like "secret torture prisons where we secretly hold our enemies prisoners without trial").

[impossiblycolorfulpanda]

Different take for Ursa:

Ikem and Kiyi do not exist. She changes her face but not at the cost of her memories. She finds her way to the white lotus, decides to hide there and even becomes a member. It's revealed that Aunt Wu is a member as well, she figures out Ursa's real identity but decides to keep her secret, and the two become friends.

[holy--milk]

been re-experiencing erha through gaywatch's livestreams for the past couple of weeks, and tbh i think the biggest obstacle to me actually being an erha fan is the fact that mo ran/shi mei is an infinitely more compelling ship dynamic to me, and i couldn't even delude myself into hoping i'd get something out of it after like the first few chapters.

[nymphd011]